Today, Fabio talks to Michael McCann, a professor at the University of Washington and former president of the Law and Society Association. Michael is known for his studies on legal mobilization and recently published an essay (with Filiz Kahraman) arguing that “the distinction between liberal and illiberal, or authoritarian legal orders is misleading”, because most countries, including the US, are “governed by plural, dual, or hybrid legal institutions, principles, and practices”. They also place this duality or hybridity in a political economy context, particularly what they call “racial capitalism”. Exploring these ideas, Fabio and Michael engage in an insightful conversation, which also touches on issues like the myth of US exceptionalism and how studies of the global south can help illuminate what goes on in the global north. Michael and Filiz's essay can be consulted at: https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev-lawsocsci-111720-012237